• It just occurred to me that if Egypt's and Syria's leaders have been mass-murdering Muslims and the world does nothing about it, then why would we think that the long-prophesied end-time persecution and murder of Christians could not--finally--be next?

    JESUS IS RETURNING FOR HIS OBEDIENT REMNANT----SOON. BUT FIRST, CHRISTIANS WILL BE PHYSICALLY PERSECUTED MUCH MORE THAN THEY HAVE FOR 2,000 YEARS.
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    • 3 people like this.
      • Wesley Norris
        ‎Tom, if I may be frank here, I find it sickening how the pre-wrath crowd waits with bated breath for Antichrist to instigate a supposed "enormous persecution" of the Church before the Rapture takes place.

        Not only is it blasphemous to put... the revealing of Antichrist before Jesus and the Church, and not only is this teaching heretical, but those of you who put this unbiblical burden upon the Church do so by breaking several commands of scripture.

        Your teachings of the Rapture are REMOVING comfort, encouragement and peace from the Church. You are doing the exact opposite of what you are commanded to do!

        - You are commanded to comfort the Church with rescue from the Tribulation (Rom 5:9; 1 Thess 1:10; 1 Thess 5:9; Rev 3:10).

        - You are commanded to encourage the Church about end times (1 Thess 4:18; 1 Thess 5:11; Heb 10:25).

        - You are commanded to be at peace and give peace to God's children about being rescued from the horrors of the end times (2 Pet 3:12, 14; 1 John 3:3).

        By telling Christians that they are going to go through the Tribulation not only decimates their Blessed Hope, but it also breaks the commands of comforting, encouraging, and being in peace with the Church about being saved from the Tribulation. You pre-wrath people give none of this to the Church.        See More
        July 15 at 7:32pm
      • Ryan Habbena I find it sickening how so many pretribulationists, like Wesley, people nullify the whole counsel of God with poor readings of Scripture. My comfort is in the King and his words: "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” John 16:33. And every true Christian has the comfor
        July 15 at 8:36pm · 1
      • Ryan Habbena
        Cont. And every true Christian has the comfort of being raised to be with Christ, even if the body is destroyed. Again, words from our King: "Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into ...prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life." (Revelation 2:10) So who to follow, the Lord or man's traditions and poor readings of Scripture. (Everyone who reads this look to the verses that Wesley noted - all promise exemption from the Lord's eschatological wrath, not suffering, persecution, and tribulation.See More
        July 15 at 8:41pm
      • Ryan Habbena
        Quote: "Tom, if I may be frank here, I find it sickening how the pre-wrath crowd waits with bated breath for Antichrist to instigate a supposed "enormous persecution" of the Church before the Rapture takes place" End Quote. I find this to ...be disingenuous at best and blatant false witnessing at worst. I know Tom personally, and I know many, many people who are either prewrathers (or post-tribulationalists) - none of these people "wait with baited breath for the Antichrist." As if we desire him to persecute us and our brothers and sisters in the Lord. We do long for our King - Jesus of Nazareth - to return and cause His name to hallowed in all the earth. We long for our King to purge the world of wickedness and have him reign from Jerusalem. We just know there will be "birthpangs." Thus we wait and pray for endurance to remain faithful to the Gospel in the midst of hardship, knowing that the greatest hardship for the people of God is just before Jesus returns, as He has instructed. Isn't it ironic that those who think that Jesus words in Matthew 24 are for us to read and heed are labeled as "blasphemous" and "heretical"?See More
        July 15 at 8:53pm
      • Wesley Norris I knew you'd eventually come out of hiding and respond to one of my posts, Ryan =) I'd like to ask you, kind sir, does Tom's opening post above provide any comfort, any encouragement, or any hope to the Church?

        Read it again. Digest it. Contemplate its structure, intent, and meaning, because Tom's post above encapsulates the very heart and modus operandi of the pre-wrath movement.

        Please answer the question truthfully.
        July 15 at 10:54pm
      • Michael Reith
        Without wishing to dive into an eschatology debate, I will state that the Christian has comfort in one thing only--that his identity is in Christ. Focusing on a rapture that will rescue the faithful from any discomfort is not consistent wit...h the historical-redemptive narrative of the Bible, nor is it the experience of many Christians throughout history. I think this may explain why the rapture view is prevalent in countries in which Christians have not been persecuted.

        The faithful of the OT were rarely excused from difficulty. The prophets often ended their lives in terrible ways. And so we find the same with Christ, the apostles and the early church.

        Whatever the sovereign Lord has in his providence, nothing will beset the faithful that they cannot endure until death, and they will be raised upon the last day. Our lives, present and future, are found in our husband, Christ Jesus who will not forsake us as our advocate. In him we are loved by the Father. In him we are found righteous. And in him we will be clothed in perfect dress one day.        See More
        July 15 at 11:31pm · 1
      • Michael Reith
        I would throw in an opinion on Syria, et al, that is not in the American media, but will be found from free sources. It is clear for those who look, that the killing that is going on is of -American-sponsored, roving bands of thugs that the... US calls noble folks who are standing against a cruel government. The US did this in Libya, as well. The real issue is trying to find a pretext to justify regime change and war. The CIAs fingerprints are all over this and the US proves itself, once again, to be an evil and warmongering nation.See More
        July 15 at 11:34pm
      • Wesley Norris
        Michael Reith, I would wholeheartedly disagree with your statement that rescue from calamity and judgment "is not consistent with the historical-redemptive narrative of the bible." We could list several examples from the bible, from the co...untless rescues of Israel in Egypt and the desert wanderings to the numerous rescues of the Northern and Southern kingdoms once established in the land. From the rescue of Noah and his family to the many individual rescues and stories throughout the historical narrative of the bible. God rescues His people before judging the land around them; He has just never removed them from the earth before.

        There is in fact a systematic theme running through the bible of God rescuing His people from judgment, calamity and evil. This is why this concept was not foreign to the Thessalonians as Paul taught them the pre-tribulation Rapture. They understood it and was commanded by Paul to comfort and encourage one another in it.

        Even your first post, Michael, was contradictory, negative, and full of doomsday overtones. This is the heart of the pre-wrath movement! Of course the Christian has comfort in other things than simply his or her identity in Christ! How about comfort in knowing we can boldly approach the throne of grace?

        Ultimately, we have comfort in knowing that God will once again rescue His people from the seven-year period that is commonly called the Tribulation. It's just too bad those of you who teach the pre-wrath view of the Rapture remove this comfort and encouragement from the Church.        See More
        Monday at 7:40am
      • Vony Bedford
        Wesley, how about 2 Cor. 11:24-28,"Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; on f...requent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches."
        Seems a bit unfair that God did not take Paul from this suffering, because according to what you say God always rescue His people from calamity and judgment. Yet He allowed Paul, one of His chosen to suffer ? So, if you read the following chapter in 2 Cor. 12:7b-10," a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong"        See More
        Monday at 9:56am
      • Wesley Norris
        Hi Vony, it is nice to hear from you. I would like to ask how it is that you can equate personal suffering and persecution with a prophesied global event like the Tribulation? How are the two in any way related whatsoever?

        In Revelation ...13, Antichrist overcomes ALL the saints (not the Church); this is not personal suffering and persecution like the pre-wrath movement makes it out to be, this is a global assault on all Jews and Christians.See More
        Monday at 10:05am
      • Vony Bedford
        Hi Wesley, good to hear from you too. I have never heard anyone in Prewrath making it all about the personal suffering. If your remember the full story of Exodus, when God took the Israelites out of Egypt. As far as I remember, He didn't m...ake it that easy for them to go to the promise land. They have to endure hardship for how long ? If they were truly His chosen, would it be easier just to lift them all up and put them in their promise land ? Yet, He tested them trough out the journey, many had failed, many complained, many turn to the other god, and many broke His command, even though He provided everything for them through out the journey. And guess how many enter the promise land from Moses's generation only two. Many were punished by God during the journey because of their obedience. God tested their faith many times, yet only a few endured till the end. Yes, God rescue the Jewish people many times in the OT, but He also punished many of them, who were not faithful.
        If there's a global persecution under the Anti Christ, is because God allowed things to happened for His glory. Romans 5:3-5,"we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us."
        Paul told Barnabas in Acts 14:22, that we have to go through many hardship and suffering to go the His Kingdom. 2 Tim. 3:12 " all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted".        See More
        Monday at 10:40am
      • Wesley Norris
        Hi Vony. I'm not sure I understand your comment when you say you've never heard anyone in the pre-wrath movement make it about personal suffering. I mean, just read the posts in this thread; every one of them is making it about personal suf...fering and persecution except for mine. It's almost as if the pre-wrath crowd can't wait for the persecution to begin so they can either die in it or be raptured at the end of it. This isn't a Blessed Hope! And it most certainly is not biblical.

        You said that God is going to allow global persecution of the Church "for His glory," but I have to wonder what kind of Father would unnecessarily punish His children and how it would bring Him glory...

        Look, would you agree that Christianity is primarily about relationship with God (John 17:3; Eph 3:14-19; 1 John 5:20)?

        Would you also agree that the Church is the Bride of Christ (John 3:29; Rev 21:9)?

        Why then, if you agree with these statements, would a husband risk relationship with his bride by intentionally punishing his bride before their marriage? Would you want to marry a husband who didn't lift a finger to help you through tribulation before your wedding night? This isn't a good relationship, this is a nightmare! Run bride, RUN!

        Moreover, what kind of glory would it bring the Father to physically persecute His Son's bride before His Son is married to her? I don't know about you, but I think that is a sick and twisted concept. Yet this is what the pre-wrath crowd is wanting the Church to believe.

        The bridegroom LOVES the bride. He loves her so much that He died for her (Eph 5:25)! So why in the world would He desire her to be punished in a global persecution that has nothing to do with his bride and has everything to do with the Jews who rejected Him?

        A husband does not intentionally allow his wife to be mistreated.

        Lastly, during the Exodus the nation of Israel was completely different than the Church is now; the two are mutually exclusive. Therefore, you cannot equate their hardships with what you think the Church is going to go through during the Tribulation; that is inconsistent theology.

        The Church is the bride not yet married (Rev 19:7); Israel was a wife already married to God (Isa 54:5-8). God had every right to chastise His wife because she wandered away from her husband. In this current dispensation of the Church, there is absolutely no basis whatsoever for God to chastise the Son's bride.

        Everywhere we turn in the pre-wrath theory there are holes; enormous, inconsistent, illogical holes.        See More
        Monday at 6:15pm
      • Michael Reith
        Wesley, you find me incorrectly. I am amillennial in my eschatology. There are many ways to interpret events that you have described as rescues of the remnant. There are more than one systematic theme. I am covenantal and historical-redempt...ive, thus I see the story of Noah to be God choosing his elect and then preserving his elect through the floods. As for the northern and southern kingdoms, again we see God's sovereign election of the saints.

        I'm not here to engage in some futile attempt to discuss different interpretations of the Bible, but I would suggest that you consider that the current rapture movement is not a historical interpretation of the Bible. If this is such an important doctrine to the saints, why does Augustine or even Pelagius not mention it, and on and on down the way. There was a small school of historical pre-mil folks, but they were of a different mind concerning the rapture.

        The rapture is the ultimate result of a person-centered gospel, planted by Charles Finney and now the evangelical movement that sprung from his loins. It is light on depravity and sovereignty , and heavy on free will. And if I am important enough to choose my own destiny, then surely God would not leave me to suffer.

        You rightly condemn those who teach pre wrath theology, as you should any apostate group. I would suggest that teaching the rapture is just as misleading to the saints. Our identity is in Christ. The church is the body of Christ, of which he is the head. Our only hope is in him, not in a rapture to avoid discomfort. Are we such soft saints that we must ride to heaven on seats of velvet, when scores of saints before us have died for Christ? And what of our new identity? Christ lives in us and we live in him. We are told that we must take up our cross. Perhaps that is an error in the text? Maybe it should be "The purpose driven life means that God has a plan for you , for life and life abundantly, especially life without suffering."

        It is you, Mr. Norris, that misleads the saints. By the millions there are saints that are living their entire lives under severe persecution. Are they to hope in a rapture or hope in Christ for life eternal? Christ died for me. Should I complain is that God's will is for me to die for my faith?

        Using your logic, Mr. Norris, God surely cannot be glorified by the millions of saints that are being persecuted. What does that say about the Lord of Rescues? The rescue is in perseverance, not in rapture. Teach correctly if you wish to encourage the saints.        See More
        Monday at 9:43pm · Edited
      • Michael Reith
        For those who are pre-trib, rapture oriented, I have mean to attack your for your eschatology, even if I do agree with it. My intent was to point out to Wesley the errors of his theology. If God is sovereign over his creation, then he is so...vereign over he persecution of the saints. What shall a tribulation exact upon a saint that is more powerful than the love and power of Christ, himself? Does he turn his head to the elect and let them suffer more than he suffered? Are his promises to the saint, which fill the Bible, moot and not applicable to the saints in a final tribulation?

        Saints have seen their babies torn limb from limb, their wives raped, and then suffered deaths of torture and pain by being burned alive. Did God forsake them? Or is God simply not powerful enough to deliver his saints? Could it be that God ordains suffering for his glory and the good of his saints and the Gospel?        See More
        Monday at 9:51pm
      • Michael Reith
        For those who wish to read of the history of persecution, read Fox's Book of Martyrs. Yes, you may become sick and nauseated or even depressed at the long line of martyrs. I did. Yet the end result was going before God with my shame that I ...was fearful of such a death. I was left with the question, "Do I trust God enough to find peace in knowing that if he has chosen me to die a horrible death for him, then he is gloried, Christ is glorified and I in him? Nobody wants to die in such a manner, but there are Christians in this world today who come to faith in a society in which they know they will suffer persecution, and even death. We need to think of them and their pain, and pray for their deliverance and strength. Yes, God would have us pray for their deliverance was the church in Jerusalem prayed for the release of Peter. He may not deliver them in real time, but we know he will eternally, and we pray for their strength under persecution if that is his will.See More
        Monday at 9:56pm · 1
      • Michael Reith
        I will leave this with what will surely draw hell's fire from Wesley. I wish to relate a true story of four of the missionaries from my church. Ten years ago, in Turkey, there were four men assigned to print Christian materials for distribu...tion in the nation. Turkey is strongly Muslim. These men were approached by a small group of young Muslim men who invited them to come to their apartment to teach them about Jesus.

        The date of the event came up and one of the missionaries could not attend, so the other three went. They were tied to chairs facing each other and parts of their bodies were cut off and out in an attempt to deny their faith and acknowledge Allah. From the investigation, it was apparent that they were tortured for hours. The neighbors admitted later to hearing horrible screams but doing nothing at first. The men were found mutilated beyond recognition. Ears, fingers, tongues, noses, and genitals hand been sliced off. Eventually they succumbed to the blood loss and shock, and died.

        The police finally were called and when they burst in the apartment the men leaped from the second story window and escaped. Witnesses said that they were covered in blood and screaming like demons.

        The Turkish government concluded that the men would not be tried as it was the Christians who brought their fate on themselves by their evangelical pamphlets. Case dismissed.

        Christians from all over Turkey bravely traveled to the funeral. The men had left behind wives and children. The church finally contacted the one remaining man, a Turkish Christian and asked if they could get him out of Turkey immediately. He asked to stay and asked that prayer be given for his courage to still witness. He still continues his work to this day. We pray for him every week in our service, still.

        American evangelical congregations certainly care for and pray about men like these. They also entertain themselves with testimonies of such during worship services. Tears flow and people are moved. Moved to do nothing because THEY will be raptured, of course just like in "Left Behind" or sleep in Christ until called to come forth. A health and wealth gospel increasingly captivates formerly solid denominations and they have two focuses--"Your Best LIfe NOW" and the Rapture.

        For whatever reason, our Father has often chosen to spread the Gospel on a road paved with the blood of saints. And if he has decided this, then it is good and glorifies him as he strengthens their faith that they might endure suffering beyond our experience. We pray, "Where is God" when a loved one keeps rejecting Christ or we lose a job. Somewhere a Christian has seen a loved one dragged off by police for their faith. They cry out, as well. In both cases, God gives strength that his saints will make it home. None will be lost. There is our hope, Brethren.        See More
        Monday at 10:15pm · Edited · 1
      • Wesley Norris
        Mr. Reith, thank you for your reply; I appreciate your strong words and I agree with many of your points. Please rest assured that I don't mind you disagreeing with me at all. I rather enjoy a healthy dialogue of disagreeing points of vie...w.

        Of course I agree with you that the pre-wrath movement is apostate, but I cannot agree that the Rapture is a man-centered, man-derived doctrine. There is just too much theology in the bible which teaches the imminent return of Christ for His bride and rescue from Daniel's 70th week. There are dozens of verses that I can post (if you so desire, and you can go through them all) which show the first century Church was already waiting for the imminent return of Christ BEFORE any other event or prophecy was to unfold.

        Actually, if a student of the bible sticks to the literal grammatical-historical device, there are not many ways to interpret events in scripture, there is only one way. If a standard method of interpretation is not heeded, there will be no consistency. This is where I find glaring errors in the pre-wrath and post-trib theories: they lose consistency in their hermeneutic methods, and thus, find themselves juggling scripture to support their theologies.

        Please don't misunderstand me when I say that persecution and personal suffering is all the pre-wrath movement preaches. I know that "all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim 3:12), including those who hold to the pre-trib view of the Rapture. But I also know that persecution for the entire Church is not a prerequisite to be raptured and enter heaven as pre-wrathers would have the Church believe. This heretical belief nullifies the Blessed Hope and causes discouragement rather than encouragement.

        I agree that the Church has become soft and complacent as it waits for Jesus to take them home, and I find this attitude nauseating. In fact, I believe this attitude is a major contributor to the modern apostasy of the Church. However, simply because the Church has become complacent as it waits for the imminent return of Jesus does not negate the fact that He will Rapture the Church, as Paul and other apostles taught in the bible. There will just be many to whom Jesus says, "Depart from me, I never knew you" (Matt 7:23).        See More
        Monday at 10:20pm
      • Michael Reith
        Thank you for your kind reply, Wesley. I an thankful that you saw my tone and that it was meant to be mean. I like good discussion as well and I especially like it when it is willing to face the hard areas of the faith. I am glad that you ...have that same desire.

        I do not think we are going to solve the Arminian/Pelagan vs Reformed/Calvinist debate online. As you point out, hermeneutics mean a lot. I am familiar with the literal view but find it lacking and unconvincing for myself, although I understand that you can find it meaningful. Covenantal theology of all the approaches has made the best use of scripture and better guards against the use of scripture out of context. My latest trail has led me to historical-redemption theology and two-kingdom views.

        Best wishes.        See More
        Monday at 10:27pm · 1
      • Tom Bedford
        Christian suffering has always been and will always be global until Christ's return. What this means is that if a self-professing Christian does not suffer, then he is not truly a Christian.

        Plus, folks, let's please understand an argumen...t before slandering it.

        And, let's not judge motives, as we are commanded in Scripture.

        And, let's not label secondary issues as apostate and heretical. If someone labels me that, that means I am not a brother in the Lord. The last time I checked, I was chosen, am repenting and placing saving, obedient faith (trust) in the imputed righteousness of Christ.

        By the way, Michael, if you don't mind, could you please tell me how you interpret the Latin word "rapiemur" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18?

        Finally, with all grace I say this point repeatedly: "pre-wrath" means pre-God's-wrath. We WILL not only escape that, but it has nothing to do with us. However, as has always been the case throughout all time for all those who obey God and Christ, and is even today--more than ever, persecution is promised to continue. Is it global? Of course! It always has been, for every Christian is hated by the world, according to John 15:18-27. Who is the world? Everybody, of course, outside of the very small remnant whom God has chosen and obeys God with a thankful heart.

        Blessings, all.        See More
        Tuesday at 12:38am · 2
      • Tom Bedford
        http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/gaza-christians-protest-forcible-conversions-1.451544

        Matthew 24:9-14: "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And... then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

        The 2 people talked about in this article apparently did not endure until the end. They were "converted," which means they never were in the faith, since faith comes from God. Thus, God uses suffering--and even death--to test our faith to see if it is genuine. Apparently, these 2 individuals did not have genuine faith. Also, many others have been falling away, too. Not surprisingly, only a remnant remains.        See More
        Gaza Christians protest 'forcible conversions'
        www.haaretz.com
        Protesters bang on church bell, chant 'With our spirit, with our blood we will sacrifice ourselves for you, Jesus.'
        Tuesday at 1:03am · Edited
      • Michael Reith
        Wesley, it seems appropriate to remind you that you were the first to call someone a heretic while addressing Tom, to wit:

        "Not only is it blasphemous to put the revealing of Antichrist before Jesus and the Church, and not only is this te...aching heretical, but those of you who put this unbiblical burden upon the Church do so by breaking several commands of scripture."

        But let us agree to avoid such words as it is easy for all of us to get worked up about a subject so dear.

        As for the Latin for the verses that you bring up, are you suggesting that we have to go from the Greek to Jerome's Latin Vulgate and then to English? This is confusing. I think that this is an attempt by those who believe in what I shall deem "The Really Big Rapture" a the latin word for "caught up" begins with "rap". We can discuss the event of being caught up and we can discuss the popular Arminian belief in a pre-mil "rapture". These are different in that the latter has assumed meanings never intended by the scripture IN CONTEXT. I'm not debating eschatology in terms of the millennium although it would not be wrong to do so to some extent to clarify a "being caught up" for the "really big rapture".

        Let's look at Chapter 4, and then the whole book in terms of purpose.

        *****************I Thessalonians 4(ESV):
        1 Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to live and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. 8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

        9 Now concerning brotherly love you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another, 10 for that indeed is what you are doing to all the brothers throughout Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more, 11 and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, 12 so that you may live properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.

        13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. ******************************

        It is clear that Paul puts a different purpose to the end times than the modern Rapture movement does. He doesn't suggest a bumper sticker that says, "In case of rapture this care will be unmanned." Rather, he first addresses purity and self-control and then transitions into brotherly love and life in this kingdom. Paul then addresses the issue of saints who have died before the coming of Christ in judgement. Keep in mind that Paul will use this term of falling asleep in the 5th chapter referring to the opposite of vigilance and expectation. But in this chapter it is clear that he refers to the dead saints. He assures them that they will rise when Christ comes and that those who are living will then ascend, being "caught up". Call this a rapture event as you will, but this refers to the end times and not the beginning of a 1000 year period of reign. But this is unimportant at the moment.

        Why did Paul address this? Can we find out from the text? Indeed. Paul spends the first three chapters making it clear that the motives of himself and the party that bought the Gospel to Thessalonica were sincere and humble, working for the Lord and seeking only the good of that congregation. We know from other epistles that the Gospel was under attack by legalizers, Judiazers and men who would abuse and rule over the church in evil ways teaching doctrine that would pull them from the Gospel. Was this to challenge some sort of anti-rapture group? No, it was to challenge those who used the fact that professors of Christ were now dead before the return of Christ, and therefore the validity of his godhood. Paul reminds them of the manner in which he brought the Gospel and worked among them.

        We should not neglect the 5th chapter in which Paul expands upon the "times and the seasons" obviously reminding them of something that he had already taught them. And for what reason? To bring them to the most important message he can deliver--

        "1 Thess 5: 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing. "

        The encouragement of all encouragements is not that we will be or won't be "raptured" but that Jesus died for us that we might live with him, whatever our state. That is, it is back to the identity of those saints in Jesus. From there he moves on to instruct them on reverence to the elders of the church and more on daily life. From this we can close the book and understand that Paul was responding to a need a need to address a congregation that was struggling as they dealt with the death of saints before the return of Christ and those who were using this to cast doubt. This had obviously gone so far as to cause disruption in the congregation and Paul seeks to bring these saints back to focus on today, upon Christ and what he has done for us, and this being so, this is how we are to live, in love and purity, encouraging one another and respecting those over us.

        In conclusion it is clear that today's evangelical movement places undue and inappropriate focus on a day that is not the last day in their own eschatology, a day when Christ returns and the Church is removed from the earth to avoid suffering. But this does not at all match the meaning of the 1st book of Thessalonians. Here Paul's chief goal is to bring a troubled congregation back to the reality that they will live with Christ and settling the issue of what happens to the dead in Christ. That being so, how are they to therefore live and relate to each other?        See More
        Tuesday at 3:40am · Edited
      • Micah Lewter Bro. Michael, please don't assume all who believe in a pretrib rapture are Arminian. God bless.
        Tuesday at 3:40am
      • Michael Reith MIcah, I am sure that there are variants. I did not mean to paint with a broad brush. As the bulk of the evangelical movement is Arminian/Pelagian and also believe in a pre-trib rapture, I suppose I failed to mention the few who are different.
        Tuesday at 3:43am
      • Micah Lewter No worries. Just wanted to clarify. I'm an "I don't know" rapturist, lol. Definitely not Arminian or Pelagian, as far as I can tell. Blessings. :)
        Tuesday at 3:46am
      • Micah Lewter
        This thread really doesn't need all the rock-throwing. As far as I can tell, the timing of the rapture is hardly explicitly stated.

        Even if the pretrib position is correct, it is clear that many believers in the tribulation will be persec...uted. Clearly, given how comfortably we rest in the US while many, many are tortured and killed in another part of the word, it is easy to see how the same would apply in a future time.

        Also, I don't think pretrib folks are necessarily expecting deliverance from all tribulation. It is rather that God warns us of an extreme time of tribulation, and the expectation that Christ will deliver us from that particular time.

        As I said above, I don't commit one way or another on the timing of the rapture, because I am not fully convinced on any point. Whatever the case may be, we can all be confident that Christ will give us grace to endure whatever we face.        See More
        Tuesday at 4:06am
      • Wesley Norris
        Please let it be known that I have not called anyone here a heretic or an apostate. I have labeled the pre-wrath and post-trib teachings as such. I do so because these teachings are at odds with what is clearly taught in the New Testament...: That the Church was designed to be kept in a constant state of waiting, preparedness, and anticipation of the coming of the Lord. To put any signs or events in front of the Rapture of the Church not only contradicts the readiness the first century Church was commanded to be in, but it also removes imminency. Once imminency is lost, there is no motivation for the Church to remain awake and pure.

        Allow me to restate this point again. The emphasis that is repeated dozens of times throughout the NT is that the first century Church was already waiting for the imminent return of Jesus before any event was to occur; this cannot be reconciled with the theories of the pre-wrath movement.

        To bring a sort of patched-up reconciliation to the table, we hear arguments like Ryan Habenna's above, when he stated we have promise of "exemption from the Lord's eschatological wrath, not suffering, persecution, and tribulation."

        I agree that we don't have a promise of a persecution-free life, but how do arguments like Ryan's "eschatological wrath" reconcile the fact that the Church is commanded to be ready for the any-moment return of Christ for His saints?

        In my opinion there is no reconciliation, only immense confusion! Ryan and those in his church and the pre-wrath movement put signs and events in front of imminency, which not only causes the Church to be discouraged and non-motivated - and places Antichrist before the real Christ - but in the long run it can allow the Church to be sleeping as she waits for signs to be fulfilled.

        I'm sorry, but nowhere in the NT do we find an argument that "eschatological wrath" must come before the appearing of the Lord for His saints. What we do find are verses like "The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer" (1 Pet 4:7). Now THAT is motivation!        See More
        Tuesday at 7:52am
      • Ryan Habbena
        There is not one verse that teaches an "any moment" return. There is a clear passage that teaches against. it. I believe the inspired pen of Paul when he commands the church: " Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our b...eing gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4). And there is not one passage in Scripture that teaches an "any moment" return of Christ. I believe this to be pure eisegesis, which can be demonstrated. So Wesley, I invite you to being posting all of your passages which you think are "clearly teaching" that Jesus can come at "any moment" and I believe I can demostrate that you are in error regarding your reading of these passages.See More
        Tuesday at 10:15am
      • Ryan Habbena
        ‎"In my opinion there is no reconciliation, only immense confusion! Ryan and those in his church and the pre-wrath movement put signs and events in front of imminency, which not only causes the Church to be discouraged and non-motivated - a...nd places Antichrist before the real Christ - but in the long run it can allow the Church to be sleeping as she waits for signs to be fulfilled." Wesley's Quote

        Let me tell you a bit about my church. We just took a trip to Thailand, preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a people in a land of dark idolotry. By the Lord's grace we planted a Bible believing Gospel centered church. From all that we could find this is one of the only churches in the Eastern part of Thailand that is actually not a health and wealth church. We also are deeply involved in ministry in Jerusalem. Looking to bring the Gospel to the Jew first in Jerusalem. We are growing roots in this city. I plan to return there for the third time with a continingecy from our church next year to encourage the remnant there and preach to Gospel. This doesn't account for the week by week activities of our church going out into the community, pleading with those we meet to be reconciled to God for the time of his great wrath is coming. Furthermore we gather many times per week for prayer and studying the Scriptures. I hate to have to note these things, but they are in defense of an accusation that our believes cause us to be "discouraged and non-motivated." The Lord knows our labor. May it be pleasing in His eyes. I will let those who read this decided if it matches Wesley's proclamation of a "discouraged and non motivated church."        See More
        Tuesday at 10:23am
      • Ryan Habbena http://www.alankurschner.com/2012/07/16/wesley-norris-doubles-down-on-his-perversion-of-gods-purposes/
        Wesley Norris Doubles Down On His Perversion of God's Purposes | Biblical Prophecy with Alan Kurschn
        www.alankurschner.com
        Norris: [W]hat kind of glory would it bring the Father to physically persecute H...is Son’s bride before His Son is married to her? I don’t know about you, but I think that is a sick and twisted concept. Yet this is what the pre-wrath crowd is wanting the Church to believe.See More
        Tuesday at 10:27am
      • Ryan Habbena I didn't expect this conversation to hit the blogosphere!! (see above link) So I guess there are quite a few people watching this conversation/debate. May God's truth and His Scriptures be magnified!
        Tuesday at 10:28am
      • Ryan Habbena
        Just a word to those reading and following this talkback. I usually steer clear of facebook debates and discussions. They can be time consumming and exhausting. Furthermore, people can be quite bold behind a keyboard and people rarely st...ay on topic. The only reason I was compelled to chime in here was the charge of blasphemy and heresy. I believe such charges need to be confronted. Since this was directed at a person under my stewardship as an elder, I was compelled to come to his defense. Beyond this, the church that I shepherd was also brought into the discussion, so I was compelled to defend them as well and demonstrate that from my perspective these are not "discouraged and non motivated" believers. As always, I am more than willing to discuss the Scriptures themselves as they are our guiding light and bread of life. For those of you who are supportive, I appreciated you coming along side me. For those who are on the fence in this whole issue, I would exhort you to be be patient and consider the ramifications and implications of this debate. And for people that are firmly pretribulational, but believe in the true Gospel, know I don't consider you "apostate" or "heretical" - I consider you brothers and sisters in the Lord. Yet, that does not mean that this is a trivial matter. It is a bigger deal than so many of us know. May the Lord grant us all open hearts to be transformed by the power of His word!See More
        Tuesday at 10:57am · 2
      • Vony Bedford Oh wow..
        Tuesday at 11:02am
      • Gloria Evelyn Irene Sitanggang ‎?????? really...????
        Tuesday at 12:56pm
      • Gloria Evelyn Irene Sitanggang so frighten..
        Tuesday at 12:58pm
      • Wesley Norris I only have this to say about Alan Kurschn and his blogging about me: LOL....and he's accusing me of slander and emotionalism? I think the hypocrisy and baiting needs to stop.
        Tuesday at 7:47pm
      • Wesley Norris
        Ryan, thank you for explaining the wonderful works that is happening in the church you belong to. Your labor in the Lord will definitely benefit the kingdom even more than I could know. I agree with you that Facebook debates can be time co...nsuming, exhausting, and hard to stay on topic. In fact, I have no idea what topic is on the table right now in this thread; it's hard to follow a topic when I post one response which is followed by several others from one or two people.

        But I will state again what I have told you before, Ryan, that no matter what kind of spin you want to put on it, your belief system is causing you to be watching and waiting first for Antichrist, not the real Christ. Philippians 3:20 states, "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ." But seemingly not so with pre-wrathers, they preach an eager waiting and anticipation of persecution under Antichrist. Don't believe me? Just read Tom's opening post and the words of so many pre-wrath advocates.

        There's not only the above problem, but in my opinion pre-wrath's fatal flaw lies in the idea that the Church is on earth during the reign of Antichrist. If the Church is on earth during Antichrist's persecution, the Church would be forced to either accept the mark of the beast and/or worship the beast or the entire Church will be put to death. I know we've briefly touched on this subject before, Ryan, but your answers of Revelation 1:17-18 and 12:11 were out of context and inadequate.

        To believe the idea that the Church is still present on earth in Revelation 13 causes the Church to both receive the mark and worship the beast, thereby forfeiting their souls, or they will be overcome and put to death. Yet we know from Jesus' words in Matthew 16:18 that the Church cannot be overcome. So these "saints" then, cannot be the Church, which would nullify a pre-wrath view of the Rapture.

        The only way out of this dilemma can be found in the pre-tribulational Rapture, and those "saints" in Revelation 13:7, can only be those who are saved during the Tribulation, because those saints WILL be overcome, there are no two ways about it.        See More
        Tuesday at 7:48pm
      • Wesley Norris
        And for what it's worth, from private messaging:

        Micah Eigsti
        Excuse me sir, may I ask which church you belong to?

        ... Wesley Norris
        Nope. I don't know you. But you may ask what my beliefs are.

        Micah Eigsti
        I know exactly what your beliefs are, I just want to find a church that teaches them

        Wesley Norris
        Who are you and why did you send me a friend request?

        Micah Eigsti
        Read my profile info for who I am. And I sent the request so I could message you and find out the church that teaches what you believe

        Wesley Norris
        Where on Facebook did you see me in order to send a friend request?

        Micah Eigsti
        On Tom Bedfors's status about Egypt and Syria
        To be honest with you, I go to a pretribulational church.
        And every time they preach on eschatology, I feel like there iis no real nutrient in what they'really teaching me

        Wesley Norris
        Sneaky little devil, aren't you? Well, you aren't going to receive the information you desire, Micah, but I will give you this: I admonish you in the Lord to abstain from your vulgar speech, unwholesome talk, and the heretical teaching of Calvinism. You have no right in front of the Lord to teach the lie that God actually chose people to go to hell for His glory.

        That's all you're getting from me!

        Micah Eigsti
        And I pray that God has mercy on you so in the Day when you are proven wrong, the judgement be less severe, amen.        See More
        Tuesday at 7:57pm
      • Ryan Habbena I need to check out from this conversation as I have other ministerial priorities to tend to at this time. Perhaps someone else will pick up where I left off. I pray for God's rich blessings upon everyone who have commented and followed this thread, without exception. In the King . . .
        Tuesday at 9:27pm · 1
      • Wesley Norris Until next time, Ryan...maybe you'll address my above challenge and questions, and possibly you can try to make a case why your "exemption from the Lord's eschatological wrath" is biblical in light of Revelation 5 and 6, with particular emphasis on the summary of the seal judgments in 6:15-17.

        Have a great day, and may the Lord bless you and your church.
        Yesterday at 9:12am
      • Wesley Norris
        One last thing for Alan Kurschn, who is a thief, a mocker, and a hypocrite. My full response to your childish blogging about me was this: "LOL....and he's accusing me of slander and emotionalism? I think the hypocrisy and baiting needs to ...stop."

        You deceitfully only cited the "LOL" part of my response and then used that manipulation to create your blog post. Get your citations right, dude, or don't cite me at all.

        The reason I haven't engaged you in discussion is because you are not discussion worthy. Your condescending and elitist attitude is repulsive, not to mention you are a full-fledged hypocrite. If you wanted a discussion with me you should have acted like a man and entered this Facebook thread rather than having Ryan Habbena bait me and other people to your dead blog.

        I called you a thief, Alan Kurschn, because you STOLE A PICTURE OF ME from my Facebook profile to use on your blog. You used my picture WITHOUT my permission and I would appreciate it (due to legal reasons) if you took it down.        See More
        Yesterday at 8:58pm
      • Wesley Norris https://www.facebook.com/wesley.norris.79/posts/152960311494438?notif_t=share_comment
        22 hours ago